gt.com: the publishing industry is a tough
business to crack. what made you decide to write "The Job Search Solution?"
TONY:
I knew the publishing industry was a pretty tough business because of my academic
background. I decided to write "The Job Search Solution" at my wife's
encouragement. The first time we were on The Dr. Phil Show, one of his other
guests had written a book, which Dr. Phil was kind enough to talk about. In the process of
helping Dr. Phil's client, my wife mentioned that I should write about my experience since
1973 in finding people jobs. After each airing of the two shows that ran, close to 1500
people called my office asking for my help. Unfortunately, our primary market is Dallas,
Texas, so I couldn't offer a lot of general help. We decided the best way to help those
people was to publish my techniques in a book.
gt.com: what a thoughtful idea! so, what do you think makes it different
from other job-hunting how-to books?
TONY:
It is written by someone who is actually "in the trenches" finding
people jobs on a daily basis. God has given me a gift and I happen to be one of the best
in the country in finding people jobs. I have personally placed more than 6500
professionals in all kinds of different jobs since 1973. So, on most given days, I know
what I'm doing. None of the even minor books about finding a job are written by people who
have the advantage of being so successful in the placement and recruitment business. I
address issues and topics that most people just aren't aware of. And, more importantly, I
teach people a system to deal with just about every aspect of finding a job. Only a
tremendously experienced professional recruiter would know the things.
gt.com: you are absolutely
right! from your experience, what do you suggest our readers do to separate themselves
from the other applicants when pursuing a job?
TONY:
Recognize that if they adopt a systematic approach to finding a job and manage the process
of finding a job in the way I recommend, they don't have to worry about the result. If you
manage the process of finding a job correctly, the result of getting a good job will take
care of itself.
gt.com: good point. what would be your recommendation for the appropriate
age to get out into the field, and still have enough time to gain experience for future
career goals?
TONY:
One of the first things that I'd recommend young people to do is to find some kind of work
as young as they can. Studies have shown that the earlier a person learns what work is all
about in their life, the more successful they are. Even "jobs" like
washing the neighbor's car or morning lawns or selling Girl Scout cookies lead a
person to understanding the correlation to reward and effort. So, even as a teenager,
while in high school or college, I recommend some kind of "work."
Working hard in school and getting the absolute best grade you can also translate into
success. More importantly, I encourage young people to take aptitude tests to determine
what their personalities and skills might lead to career-wise. Our children, who are
mostly grown, took advantage of the Johnson O'Connor Research Foundation. I'm
sure there are other organizations like them that do personality and skill assessments.
Although I don't think a person should make their career decisions based 100% on these
kinds of assessments, they do help a person discover what they might be better at than
other things. For instance, if a person thinks they might want to be an engineer, but have
only average math skills, they may want to reconsider pursuing that kind of career. Or if
a person is considering teaching as a profession but discover, through these kinds of
tests, that they all are impatient and need to work alone, they might reconsider that
career.
gt.com: that is a great suggestion! should young people take any job that
comes their way, if it may remotely have a chance to "make them?"
TONY:
Young people should be weary of thinking that any kind of a job or any kind of a career
will "make them." Most of us, through hard work and attitude can make
our jobs a real career. Satisfaction from a job or career does not come from the job or
the career itself, but rather, comes from the amount of effort and passion that a person
invests in that job or career. Too many young people, and people in general, stand in
front of their job or career the way they stand in front of a fire and metaphorically say,
"Give me heat and then I'll give you wood." Well, it doesn't work that
way. One has to adopt the attitude of, "I'll 'invest’ the wood, and then get
heat."
gt.com: what a wonderful
metaphor! so, preparation
for an in-person job interview can cause so much anxiety. what should our readers do to be
more calm, and still feel like they are fully prepared?
TONY:
Two things -- first, realize that if they give a prospective employer good reasons of why
they have to be hired, they don't have to worry about getting a job offer. If people
realize that they need to "sell" the value of them being hired,
everything else takes care of itself. Also, a person has to practice, practice, and
practice the interviewing presentation that they make on themselves before they get into
the interview. I recommend in my book, specifics scripts and formulas that are successful
95% of the time in the interviewing process. If people practice selling their value before
they get into the interviewing situation, it will remove most of the negative anxiety.
gt.com: on that note, your book discusses the sure-fire ways to kill an
interview. what would you say is the absolute worst thing to do in an interview?
TONY:
The biggest mistake that most people make is going into an interview with the attitude of,
"What can you do for me?" That attitude is the worst thing you can do
in an interview. Instead, they need to realize that it is the candidate's responsibility
to sell what they can do for the prospective employer. This also happens to be the most
common mistake that young people make in seeking employment. No one "deserves"
a job or career. It has to be earned.
gt.com: we'll make sure to avoid that one! now, let's talk about resumes.
in your book, you talk about writing a resume in under thirty minutes. what are the most
important parts of a resume?
TONY:
I do mention in the book that you can write a resume in under thirty minutes. What I was
trying to say is that most people spend way too much time writing a resume thinking that
they are some kind of magical, mystical tool that's going to get somebody a better job.
That just isn't so. Keep in mind that the purpose of a resume is not to get you a job. The
purpose of the resume is to sell the hiring or interviewing authority on why they ought to
interview you. I never recommend sending a resume to any interviewing or hiring authority
unless it is preceded by a personal phone call to them. I've read that getting an
interview by sending a resume over the internet is only successful around 2% of the time.
Don't blindly e-mail resumes to every company that you can think of or even the ones that
say they have an opening. Call a hiring authority, and try to sell them on seeing you
face-to-face, then if you have to, e-mail a resume.
gt.com: excellent idea! but, as a young person, there
may not be much employment to highlight. what other aspects can a person add to dress up a
resume with past experiences?
TONY:
Not having a lot of "work experience" to reflect on a resume isn't as
much of a challenge as most people think. Most employers want to know how hard a worker a
person is, how diligent they might be, and how successful they've been in the past…at
the things they have done. If successes are things like good grades in school, leadership
positions in school, success as an athlete, or even part-time jobs while in school, a
prospective employer will take notice. I tell people: "You can't be 40 when
you're 20 years old." The amount of experience needs to be balanced by the
qualities of success.
gt.com: that's a great point! so, what are the types of skills employers
are really looking for, and how can a young person prepare for them before pursuing a
career?
TONY:
The most important skill that employers are looking for in any person, no matter how young
or old, is the ability to work hard. That means things like going the extra mile, going
out of your way to do more than your asked, demonstrating passion and caring for what you
do. All of these things carry over to just about any job or career.
gt.com: that is true! how about education -- what are your recommendations
to clients as far as how to get the best employment, or even the best pay?
TONY:
Having a number of degrees is really different than an "education."
Having an undergraduate bachelor’s degree simply opens more doors to employment
opportunities than not having a college degree. But not having a college degree doesn't
mean a person can’t be successful...ask Michael Dell, Bill Gates or Larry Ellison.
Our society has bought the idea that if you have "more education" you
are a "better" person. It is simply not the case. I do believe that it
is important to at least get a bachelor’s degree but not because it makes you smarter
but because having it is, more or less, expected before entering a career. The unfortunate
problem is that by not having it, a person is limited to the kinds of careers that he or
she might pursue. Degrees, anywhere from a bachelor through a master's or Ph.D. never made
any one successful.
gt.com: on that note, can a Bachelor's degree suffice these days, or is it
vital to pursue that Master's Degree?
TONY:
I mentioned in my book that the major reason that university's institute master degree
programs is because they can actually make money for the university. The student to
teacher ratio is phenomenally high in MBA. programs. The surplus in tuition from most MBA.
programs can finance the scientific and technical departments of higher learning
institutions where the student to teacher ratio is low and more expensive to run. Colleges
and universities will never admit to this, but that's why you see so many MBA. programs.
Undergraduate and MBA. degrees don't make people better professionals. The kind of people
that get MBAs especially, would wind up being successful anyhow. But, because society
supposedly values MBAs and since these people want to get ahead and be successful they get
MBAs. But the MBA's don't necessarily make them better professionals. I'm not saying that
it is not good to have an MBA. If people want to get them, they should be free to do that.
gt.com: that is an excellent point. in your opinion, do MBAs give
potential employees a boost in the eyes of the hiring squad?
TONY:
We interview a lot of candidates that think because they have any new MBA they're going to
get a better job or be sought after by more organizations. That's simply not true in the
mainstream of American business. In all of the years in the placement and recruitment
business I've never seen a situation where candidate got hired because he had an MBA.
Theoretically, if there were two equal candidates and one had an MBA and another one
didn't and the company thought it would be better to have a person with that type of
degree, I guess it would make a difference. But, believe me, I've never seen two equal
candidates. And my company is a fairly large recruiting firm; we have placed more than
100,000 professionals. Degrees are good, but they're no panacea and they certainly aren't
any "key" to success. I have a Ph.D. and not one of my candidates or my
clients give a damn. I either find a good job or I find them a good candidate that they
hire or I don’t. They could care less about my degree.
gt.com: now, let us ask you about those follow-up calls. when is it
appropriate to call an employer that hasn't touched base without looking too eager or
annoying?
TONY:
A person should act eager to get a job offer. I suggest calling them persistently until
you get a response or after 10 or 15 calls with no return call you may come to the
conclusion that you probably aren't being considered. Candidates often get concerned about
appearing "desperate." My analogy is this. Did Michael Jordan appear
desperate when he played even if he was 25 points ahead.... absolutely. There is a
difference between coming across intense, passionate and aggressive and coming across as
beggingly desperate. The attitude needs to be: "You're absolutely right...I am
intensely interested in going to work for you. I need to know exactly where I stand with
your organization." The implication is that the candidate is doing this with
every organization with whom he or she is interviewing. If it is communicated in a meek,
mousy, begging manner, then it will come across as a desperate. If it is communicate it in
an aggressive, businesslike manner, it works.
gt.com: fantastic suggestion! let's say one of our readers has to make
this decision: a job that isn't their ideal but available immediately, or rejecting that
job because they are waiting on a different employer that is closer to their ideal. what
would you advise?
TONY:
First of all, they're very few ideal jobs. Some might be better than others, but
you really honestly don't know that in the interviewing process. Jobs appear to be one way
in the interviewing process and, more often than not, turn out to be another way once you
are on the job for a while. I tell candidates that if a job is within 75% to 80% of what
an ideal situation would be, that's probably about as good as you're going to do. I give a
“formula” in the book. I would never ever ever tell a candidate to pass
up an offer in hand, that is a reasonable offer and wait for one that might look to be
closer to their ideal unless they could find out about the second one before they had to
commit to the first. If you have an offer from one firm and you think you are close to
another offer with a better opportunity, it is advisable to call the second opportunity,
and explain to them that you have an offer in hand and you like to know what their
situation is. If they don't make you an offer within, say a day or so, they aren't serious
about you, so accept the initial offer. Candidates misinterpret being "close to"
an offer all the time. Until you actually have an offer in hand you really don't have any
thing and all. 30% of the job opportunities that we, as a placement firm, work with never
get filled at all. That's a shock to most candidates. All kinds of things happen to keep
companies from actually filling positions even though they sincerely start out with the
idea that that's what they're going to do. Everything, and I mean everything, is
speculation until you have an offer in hand. So if you get an offer and you think you
might have another one in the wings, you should call that second firm and try to get an
offer immediately. If you don’t, then you should take the first one that was made.
gt.com: great answer! your book talks about the myths and realities about
job finding. what do you think is the myth that is most rampant?
TONY:
That businesses in the United States operate with common sense with a high degree of
business acumen. 97% of the companies in the United States employed less than a hundred
people. These firms operate like most of the people that run them. To quote Brian Tracy,
one of our country's most intelligent and prolific business consultants, these people are:
"Ambitious, greedy, selfish, lazy, impatient, vain and ignorant." They
run their companies the same way. Most businesses run by the seat of their pants. They are
impetuous, lack common sense and, most of the time; see the world through their own
inflated ego. I'm amazed they do as well as they do.
gt.com: thanks for clearing that up! how can our young readers overcome an
employer bias, like age, when looking for a job?
TONY:
The best way to overcome any perceived bias on the part of an employer is to sell
experience and track record. There's a lot greater bias against older people than there is
younger people. The younger people have a disadvantage in having very little experience.
So, what I would recommend is for a young candidate to do what we call "change
the base." If the candidate perceives that a hiring authority is concerned that
they're too young and inexperienced, the candidate needs to say something to change the
base of what the employer is concerned about all along this line: "While your
concern, Mr. or Ms. ___, might be that I do not have enough experience, let me point out
to you that I've been successful in everything that I have never done in spite of the fact
that I had no experience. Before I went to high school, I had never been in high school
and I was very successful. Before I went to college, I had never been to college and I was
very successful in college. I have been successful in everything I've ever done since I
was 14 years old and none of it was based on previous experience. A winner is a winner is
a winner. I've always been a winner and I will be a winner for you." The
candidate is changing the base of "the amount of experience " to a base
of a "success." The candidate gets the hiring authority to focus on the
success that the candidate has had rather than the amount of experience.
gt.com: that's an excellent suggestion! even pursuing a non-paid
internship can be difficult. what would you recommend to our readers in the search of
internships?
TONY:
It's like looking for any other kind of job. An individual has to be very, very proactive
and interview for lots of internships. An individual has to be prepared to call and talk
to maybe hundreds of people and be rejected hundreds of times before they are successful.
As with looking for a job, they need to develop a system of looking for an internship. In
1996, when my oldest son graduated from Columbia University in New York, he wanted to get
into the investment banking business. I instructed him to cold call every investment
banking firm in New York and offer to work for them for 90 days for free just to get
experience. I think he called investment-banking firms for two solid days. He found one,
very small firm that was a division of an investment banking firm out of the U.K. that had
one of their analysts going back to the U.K. for three months. They hired my son for $1000
a month…for 90 days. He was with them for two years and now he is one of the youngest
vice presidents of J.P. Morgan Chase in New York. He kissed a lot of frogs before he found
a princess.
gt.com: a lot of job-hunters can have pretty high standards. should those
same job seekers learn to compromise, and if so, how and when would be the most suitable?
TONY:
We experience candidates all the time that don't have so much a high standard as they do
unrealistic ideas about what the market is going to bear for their skills. Job seekers can
only get a realistic idea about what's available to them by committing to finding a new
job and doing a lot of the interviewing. Compromising is relative. If you have a job that
you like but need to find another one for relatively minor reasons, the compromises you
might make may be minimal. If you have been out of work for six months you may end up
compromising a lot. I can't really tell you what kind of compromise as a person might
make. A candidate's "value" in the marketplace is based on the kind of
job offers that he or she can get. No candidate has an "intrinsic"
value. I liken it to people who speculate what their house is worth. Your house isn’t
worth anything until the day you sell it. And what you get for it the day you sell it is
what your house is worth. What you think it's worth may or may not have anything to do
with what you sell it for. Being a job seeker is exactly the same thing. Your value is
determined by the job offers that you get in your hand.
gt.com: that's a nice concept! your skills at job recruitment have even
landed you a few appearances on the Dr. Phil Show. what have you personally learned by
appearing on television, and how was that experience?
TONY:
Appearing on television was a fun and interesting experience. Other than sports, I don't
watch much television. Phil McGraw is one of the most congruent and real people there is
on his level of popularity. Now, I haven't spent a lot of personal time with him, probably
no more than 20 or 30 minutes. But, his organization that produces the Dr. Phil Show
is one of the finest group of sincere, committed, hard working, just downright nice people
that a person could ever experience. Phil McGraw's whole organization reflects his
personal values. They are not just running a show. They are a sincere organization, truly
committed to helping people. My personal exposure was mostly with the people that manage
his shows. They're wonderful. The guy runs a wonderful business and deserves every bit of
success that he has achieved. Most people don't know this, but Phil McGraw has a whole
network of counselors and consultants that help people that appear on his show well beyond
the appearances themselves and the Dr. Phil Show absorbs most all of the expenses
It isn't just a show, this guy and his company really help folks. They run one heck of an
organization and I can't say enough good things about them.
gt.com: finally, if you could only give young job-hunters one piece of
advice, what would it be?
TONY:
As Douglas MacArthur said, "find a system and work it.” If job hunters
approached finding a job in a systematic way, the way I recommend it in the book, all of
the emotional strain and dis-ease in looking for a job would be removed. If you work the
process you don't have to worry about the result.
gt.com: what wonderful advice! thanks for the interview, Tony!
Hopefully now, you feel a little less anxiety when going on that
job hunt. For more insider information on everything from practical do's and don'ts, the
common myths and realities of hiring, and the art of resumes, buy Tony's new book
"The Job Search Solution: The Ultimate System for Finding a Great Job Now!"
Okay, girls -- it's time we get out there and show the professional world what we're made
of! Good luck!
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Tony
Beshara's book "The Job Search Solution"